Episode 4012 (01/24/2008)

Segment 1: Kucinich drops his bid for the presidency, Giuliani campaigns in Florida, Bill Clinton campaigns for Hillary

• First guest: Debra Dickerson

Segment 2: The Democratic debate in South Carolina (and sand sculptures)

Segment 3: Main guest: Harvard Law School professor and online poker advocate Charles Nesson

In closing: Thank you so much! Welcome! Welcome back, everybody! Good night.

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NOTABLE MOMENTS

• Of course, the primaries go on, and of course the big political story — [*ding*] What? Did anyone else hear a –? What? Did something just appear in my pocket? What? [pulls a card from his suit jacket] Oh, no! “I have dropped out of the race – Dennis Kucinich.” Oh! Friend of the show!
• I know what must have happened. Someone finally said his name three times, and he disappeared. He will be missed. Wonder if his wife disappeared?
• Anyway, as I said before I was so rudely interrupted — *by magic*!! thank you, very generous — was that the big political story for the Republicans right now is the Florida primary, where one candidate has really drawn a line in the sand and said it is a “must win”.
• In a wide-ranging interview, Mayor Giuliani explained why he believed Florida was the true “bellweather” state. [clip of Giuliani, "This was the state that decided our President in 2000, so it is also a state that is very politically aware ..."] True. There are few voters as “politically aware” as the 6,000 ancient Jews who voted for Pat Buchanan.
• For Republicans, it’s Florida. For the Democrats, it is still South Carolina where, almost a week later, tongues are still wagging about the Democratic debate on Monday night, sponsored by the Congressional Black Caucus, wherein Hillary Clinton certainly did not surprise me when she revealed one of her great political heroes. [clip of Hillary, "I'm reminded of one of my heroes, Frederick Douglass"] I see it. There is a real similarity there. In fact, I’d go so far as to say, Frederick Douglass might just be Hillary Clinton’s new Black Friend.
• But the big story surrounding the Clinton campaign is not about Hillary Clinton, but Bill Clinton, who recently has engaged in a series of very hostile, broadside attacks at the Obama campaign and what he perceives to be the press’s pro-Obama bias.
• This down-and-dirty, in the gutter, some say un-Presidential fighting style is a mystery that has many in the news business, in fact, I’d say everybody, asking, “Why?”
• [Clip of Scooby-Doo footage with Clinton's quotes dubbed over the villain's words and concluding with Fred playing a tape of Clinton's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" quote and Scooby saying, "Ruh-roh!"] Yes, yes. “Ruh-roh!” indeed, Scoob, “Ruh-roh,” indeed.
• Now I happen to believe that all these attacks by Bill Clinton is just desperation by the Clinton campaign because it is expected that Barack Obama will still win the South Carolina primary. Now, why will he still win the primary in this majority black state? Well, Bill Clinton is suggesting that it’s because black voters will just side with Obama. Well, here to discuss the black vote in South Carolina, and everywhere else, is friend of the show Debra Dickerson.
• You’ve been a supporter of the Clintons, publicly —
• Dickerson: In some ways.
• Stephen: In some ways? In print; is that one way? Does that count?
• Dickerson: That’s one way; yes.
• Stephen: Okay, exactly. In black and white, if you’ll pardon the expression.
• Dickerson: But … I’ve been extremely critical of them also. They’re not a simple phenomenon; they’re very complicated.
• Stephen: No, they’re a double-headed creature. Now it seems to me that Bill Clinton is suggesting that South Carolina should not count as an indicator as to how Hillary’s doing, because it’s a majority black vote for the Democrats. Shouldn’t we just wait to a state that has a majority white vote to really count those votes?
• Dickerson: It’s a shameful reality to acknowledge without denouncing. Why is it race-based voting when black people support Obama … to be disapproved of, but not when white people support white people? I, I don’t understand why –
• Stephen: Well, white people support white people because there are more white options, aren’t there? More white people run. Certainly this time around.
• Dickerson: Well, what’s the real difference between McCain, Giuliani, Romney? I mean, you’ve got one sort of old white millionaire … they’re sort of interchangeable.
• Stephen: Well, that’s why — that’s why a lot of white voters flip a coin.
• Dickerson: As long as the coin isn’t black.
• Stephen: Right. Sort of silver. Around the temples, in Romney’s case. Now, you’ve got a — you got a real quandary here. You’re a woman –
• Dickerson: Right …
• Stephen: … and I understand that you’re black. I don’t see race, but you’ve told me that you’re black, and I believe you because I could never get away with that [gestures to Dickerson's braids] with my hair.
• Dickerson: [laughing]
• Stephen: Aren’t you torn? Shouldn’t you be voting for Barack Obama? Bill Clinton says you would.
• Dickerson: Only if you believe that women and minorities are not capable of the same kind of complexity of thought that white men are sort of automatically assumed to be capable of.
• Stephen: But isn’t that what the President is suggesting?
• Dickerson: Well, I would agree, and I am on record, especially in the last little bit, as being very critical of the President, I have –
• Stephen: What is ‘the last little bit’? The last two minutes, or –
• Dickerson: No –
• Stephen: … or like the last, uh –
• Dickerson: In the last two weeks, I referred to … former President Bill Clinton’s behavior as being “sphincter-like”.
• Stephen: [breaking for laughter] I — I did not know that was a recognized adjective. I, ah … That is actually very inventive; I might need to add that to my vocabulary.
• Dickerson: I think his behavior — while on the one hand it’s sort of, I’m glad to see a man standing up for his “woman” — but I sort of see a former President tarnishing his legacy. And for me, the Sister Souljah moment from 1992 is something I have personally never forgiven him for. And he’s working his way back around to another of those now, so I’m very, very … suspicious of the former President’s motives and behavior right now; he’s right up to the line.
• Stephen: Then why are you supporting him? Are you suspicious of yourself?
• Dickerson: I’m not supporting him. What are you basing this on?
• Stephen: Well, if I’m mischaracterizing your position, I apologize. But I’m gonna continue to mischaracterize it; is that all right?
• Dickerson: [laughter]
• Stephen: Because if I, if I say that I’m wrong, well then I’ll lose this argument.
• Dickerson: Right. I am an equal opportunity critic. There are some things I am very critical of the Obama campaign for. I will go on record as saying that I’m not an Edwards supporter.
• Stephen: Why, because he’s white?
• Dickerson: [laughter]
• Stephen: [choking back laughter] And a man?
• Dickerson: [laughing] Uh, no. [both struggle to contain their laughter] Even you can’t take you sometimes.
• Stephen: [*massive character break, leaning back, clapping and laughing*] Debra Dickerson, thank you so much. I’m gonna say please come back — I’m not sure if I mean it.
• Dickerson: [more laughter]
• As I said before the break, all the tongues in the “newsoblogs” are still wagging over last Monday’s Democratic debate in South Carolina. Everyone’s asking, “Who attacked; who fought back; who won; who lost?” Well, I always say the best way to judge a debate is with monumental sand sculpture.
• [Montage of the Democratic frontrunners attacking each other, intercut with footage of their sand sculptures being demolished] And the winner? The Republican Party.
• [Editor's note: Oddly enough, we saw no sign of this on the show tonight.]
• My guest tonight is a Harvard Law School profesor who wants to make online poker legal again. Let’s see how quickly he “folds”. Please welcome Charles Nesson!
• Now, you may be a man of the people with this whole poker thing, but I will not forgive you for being a professor at one of the elite, Ivy League schools, okay? And welcome to the show.
• Sir, sir–! Do you have a gambling problem?
• Sir, I, I hope this — I hope this doesn’t shock you, but this is an intervention. All those people out there in the darkness are your family and your friends, and we love you, and we want you to get better. Do you understand? Do you have a gambling problem?
• Nesson: [laughing] My gambling problem is that poker gets lumped in with “gambling”. There’s casino gambling, where you play against the house, bad odds, you cannot — you cannot purposely lose, in the casino games. You can’t, you can’t purposely win; they’re not games of skill. But poker is a game of skill, where you play against the other people around the table and not against the house.
• Stephen: You know what I’m hearing? Denial. The first step toward getting healthy is admitting you have a problem.
• Okay, I’ll — let me just bite for a second and say that, that poker does help you, ah … it does *teach* you things that can be used in you life. But there are other games that can do that. The Game of Life, for instance, would be one of them …
• Nesson: … First of all, poker’s like, the quintessentially American game; it’s an incredibly elegant game. It’s one where your move depends upon what the other person’s move is gonna to be –
• Stephen: I thought it was an English game, ’cause it has kings and queens in it.
• Nesson: No, that’s chess. That’s chess.
• Stephen: Oh, okay; all right. My mistake.
• Nesson: Oh, you mean on the cards?
• Stephen: On the cards, exactly!
• Nesson: Well, the cards come down from Merrie Olde England; that’s probably true. But poker actually, that was born on the Mississippi, largely. That was like, the frontier game.
• Stephen: Ah. The Mighty Mississipp.
• Nesson: Yes, indeed.
• Stephen: The Old Miss.
• Nesson: Yes, indeed.
• Stephen: The Old Man.
• Nesson: Yes, all those –
• Stephen: Deep River.
• Nesson: All those, all those –
• Stephen: The Big Muddy
• Nesson: Yeah, yeah. All those –
• Stephen: The Chocolate Highway.
• Nesson: Yep.
• What would the tuition be for your poker university online?
• Nesson: Poker U. online is gonna be an open, completely free way of engaging people. And when I say, poker online, for me, it’s not just poker –
• Stephen: By the way, “poke ‘er online” means something different if you put that into a Google search, so … I’d be careful how you throw that online. Uh, um … but it’s gonna be totally free? You just, you just wanna spread the Gospel of Poker, is what you’re saying?
• Nesson: I would like to teach strategy in an open, online, educational environment. Strategies. Poker’s strategic thinking; progressing from the most basic, strategic games, up through. And this has a tremendous academic lineage; this, this is von Neumann, Nash –
• Stephen: Hah, von Neumann! Don’t start about von Neumann around me! That’s all I talk about around here when the cameras are off! … Professor, thank you so much for coming on –
• Nesson: So wait a minute, I’ve got a proposition for you.
• Stephen: … Does this have anything to do with, anything to do with “poke ‘er online”?
• Nesson: Yeah well, do you play?
• Stephen: Do I play?
• Nesson: Yeah.
• Stephen: [laughing and shrugging] Yes.
• Nesson: What would you think of inviting the presidential candidates to play poker? To show their skills in front of a camera?
• Stephen: That would be nice. That would be nice. You know what? I bet Hillary Clinton already has those sunglasses with the little snake eyes on them.
• Nesson: Yeah, I bet she does.

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Fangirl Suit Report: Black pinstriped suit, silver grey shirt with French cuffs. Red tie with diamond and polka dot pattern. WristSTRONG bracelet.

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